Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin
Nyancat on the touchbar (github.com/avatsaev)
383 points by matt2000 on Nov 6, 2016 | hide | past | favorite | 159 comments


To evoke maximum outrage, you should show AdMob mobile banner ads on the Touch Bar. First app to do it wins a free press cycle.



We can bring memories back, who needs Internet Explorer when your keyboard has an integrated toolbar?

https://twitter.com/cfieber/status/792030673963851776


Enlargement ads would fit rather well ;)


Or not, if they work.


Don't give anyone ideas.


Of course it'll be done.

Here I am with an iPhone 6s, and on the average site I see less content than I did on WAP - many sites are 80/20 or worse on mobile.

How long until hardware manufacturers include dedicated advertising displays in exchange for cheaper up-front hardware?


Amazon Kindle with ads on the lock screen is already offered as cheaper hardware than without ads.


Why would you need the wifi turned on on a Kindle? One should just buy that version and turn off the wifi, thus getting rid of the ads.


One of the nice parts of using a Kindle is that it syncs your page between all of your devices, so if I want to quickly open the app on my phone and read a few pages I'm right where I was when I was last on my Kindle. When I get back to my Kindle, it has the new location synced.

I read a lot of non-fiction. One nice feature that it has on WiFi is the ability to highlight a word or phrase and it will display a definition or a Wikipedia article/snippet right there on the device. Its an easy and fast way to get more information out of your readings, especially when I'm at the pub with only my Kindle.

Another strong reason why you probably need WiFi on a Kindle at least some of the time is because WiFi is the primary way it gets content. You can get a USB cable to load stuff on it, but chances are if you've bought a Kindle you bought it to use the Kindle store.

Also, I'm pretty sure it downloads a bunch of ads at once when it syncs, and then shows them over time. I've had it disconnected from WiFi for a few weeks before, and it still showed ads. So even if you only connected it for a few minutes to sync everything and then you disconnected until you wanted a new book from the Kindle store, you would still see ads.


"How long until hardware manufacturers include dedicated advertising displays in exchange for cheaper up-front hardware?"

1999: http://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/30/business/no-more-giveaway-...


You can run ad blockers on iOS now. Purify is a good one. They only cover Safari, not web views, but that's still a lot better than nothing.


Tip: if you have another browser, turn off JS in Safari. Use Safari until you really need JS, copy paste URL, Chrome, go to clipboard link, retry. It's laborious, but it beats getting bent over the knee by mobile ads.


Sounds like state-of-the-art pre-adblock technology.

Browsing with no-JS/JS browsers indeed is laborious nowadays. I use this approach out of habit on my desktop machine, but on my new laptop I just couldn't bring myself to copy this solution and installed an adblocker instead.


Or just keep Javascript on but install JS Blocker 5 and choose what scripts run. It quite amazed me how much sites try to fingerprint your browser, especially with canvas fingerprinting.


Then people could just physically cover up the extra screens.


Or unplug them


If I could afford one of the new Macs I would have already started working on this...surely someone else will.


You don't need a new Mac to work on this, Xcode can show a software touch bar for development.


I did not know this. Thanks!


See also: https://github.com/bikkelbroeders/TouchBarDemoApp which has a facility to run a Touch Bar demo on an iPad connected to a Mac (or a Mac).


I'm already working on it :))


smart idea, so instead of annoying popups on website or free apps you get something in the dashbar


Please some one.


So... just about the touchbar and not this particular project:

The touchbar is on the keyboard, almost perpendicularly (and many times at an obtuse angle) opposite to the screen. So I have to move my head up and down all the time. This is not an issue with the regular keyboard because it has physical buttons which don't change their meaning, so I have memorized the layout and I can use my muscle memory.

To avoid moving human head up and down, maybe they should have put it adjacent below or above the screen, you know. And while they were at it, maybe they should have just merged it into the screen seamlessly... Oh, and while they were at that, they could make the entire screen a touch-screen instead of just a small bar. Just imagine... a touchscreen laptop. Now that would be amazing, right?


> So I have to move my head up and down all the time.

No you don't have to. You can simply move your eyes. Also humans have this ability called "peripheral vision". Not to mention using the touchbar is optional. If you want to memorise all the key combinations, you're fine.

I think we should stop guessing about a new UI method before we actually try it.


> If you want to memorise all the key combinations, you're fine.

So they didn’t remove an entire row of function keys that were used for exactly that purpose?


The function keys are still there, you can invoke them by holding down the fn button just as before.


But can you feel (without looking) whether you hit just F3, or F3 and F4?


Personally, my F key usage has been so infrequent (besides F5, once upon a time) that I can't reliably touch type them.

I suspect most people are the same way, especially as keyboards have miniaturized and removed the 4-clustering.


You don't even need Alt+F4 anymore since it's all CTRL+W (or CTRL+Q). or CTRL+R instead of F5. Same on the Mac.



Steve Jobs, in 2008, on why touchscreen iMacs are bad http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/14/my-question-with-ste...

Steve Jobs, in 2010, on why touchscreen laptops are bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeNsqqKadQ4

Jonny Ive, last week, on why touchscreen laptops are bad https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/jony-ive-talks-about-pu...


Steve Jobs, in 2003, on why tablets are bad http://thenextweb.com/apple/2013/10/11/hear-steve-jobs-convi...

Apple stood by this conviction until they started selling iPads. It's likely that they will maintain their position against touchscreen laptops only until they can make a reasonable profit selling them. I speculate that the reason for Apple not currently producing them, more than anything else, has to do with the fact that touchscreen laptops would cut into iPad sales.


That doesn't make sense. Apple has never been afraid to cannibalize a product line.


Apple under Jobs was never afraid to cannibalize a product line.


Do you think Jobs had already planned to cannibalise the 7" iPad by focusing on 5.5" phones?


He says tablets are good for consuming information, but not for inputing, because typing is faster than handwriting. That seems to coincide with iPad's intended usage, which is media and web.


That's how I've always used my iPads, but Apple also intends people to use iPads like this (mostly the Pro models):

http://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/experience/

Word and Excel running on the 9.7" iPad with a keyboard is pretty much the opposite of what I'd ever buy an iPad for.


I'm right now using this wacom lower surface with a fullhd antiglare touchscreen in front of me, a 695g 9mm thin device with an all day battery and a backlit keyboard that adapts to my typing style, what am I using?


"So I have to move my head up and down all the time."

I believe that for the use-case of Touch Bar as slider, it has similar behavioral characteristics as a trackpad. Do you use a trackpad? Or a mouse? Do you find yourself moving your eyes back and forth between the screen and the trackpad or mouse? Honest questions. I'm not trying to be snarky :)

As for custom keys, I think this has more in common with chording/key commands. There is the distinction that there aren't physical keys, but in the case of key commands, I know I'm not thinking, say, ⌘-Z when I undo. I'm just thinking Undo. And many key commands are application dependent. As I get used to whatever custom keys I've got programmed or are made available by an application, there'll be some period of acclimation, and then it'll just become habit. Perhaps to offset the lack of physical gaps between keys there will be larger target areas on the Touch Bar.

What do you think? Are these comparisons useful? If not, what are their limitations?

I do think the Touch Bar would benefit from some kind of haptic response, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the direction it goes.

I also wouldn't be surprised if at some time in the future there is a touch screen for Macs. That doesn't mean that Apple is ready to release such a MacBook yet (for whatever reason), or that the Touch Bar isn't a valid feature. And while it's generating a lot of heat at this point, until there are a lot more hands-on (cough) reports, I think it's prudent to remember a lot of this is speculation, both for and against.

Edit to add: If you choose to down vote, please take the time to reply with a comment as well in the interest of communication. Thanks!


Trackpad, mouse, etc, is not a good comparable. Unlike a trackpad or mouse, the touch bar is a video display. Being a display implies visual interaction, and the lack of physical feedback will make 'touch typing' the touch bar difficult.


Yes, it has a display component. I don't see how that implies it must always be used by looking at it. Keys (usually) have labels on them, yet many people don't use the labels as reference once they're accustomed to touch typing.

Learning key commands can be a chore, requiring use of the manual or discovery through menus. Do you remember cards provided with some applications that included lists of command key commands? The Touch Bar makes things like that instantly available. And once you learn where they are, you don't need to be looking at them.

There are probably going to be some interesting interaction possibilities where we're going to want use the Touch Bar in a more visual way.

One I can think of is the autocomplete demo during the Hello Again event. I personally think autocomplete would be better served keyboard alone in a manner similar to how the spelling and grammar suggestions work, rather than through the Touch Bar, but again, that's not having used it.

I completely agree that it is a new input device. Just not completely new. Some things are going to carry over from the keyboard, the trackpad, and the touch screen. And I agree the lack of physical response may take some getting used to. As I mentioned, I think we'll see improvements on this in the future.


You're missing the 'physical feedback' component. People don't need to look at labels on keys, because they can feel the keys. A smooth bit of touchscreen has no 'landmarks' to orient yourself with.

> I completely agree that it is a new input device. Just not completely new

Yep. Lenovo introduced one a couple of years ago in their X1 Carbons. It was hated so much that it was stripped out of the next gen.

Ultimately, the only benefit of the touchbar is the ability to be used as a slider, but you lose discrete keys to get that. How many things would such a slider be useful for? People aren't changing their volume all that often, and what real difference is there between a slider and a pair of volume buttons (media keys) anyway?


"Yep. Lenovo introduced one a couple of years ago in their X1 Carbons. It was hated so much that it was stripped out of the next gen."

From the reading I've done this morning on the 2014 X1 Carbon (the only model that had the Adaptive Keyboard replacing the function row), there was a lot of dissatisfaction with the keyboard and trackpad as a whole, not only the strip. Among others, they removed the physical keys from the trackpad, moved the Home and End keys to the Caps Lock location, and removed other keys entirely. I read a lot of complaints about all of these, and all of these were reverted in the 2015 version.

Yeah, people are discussing the removal of the ESC key on the MacBook Pro as well. I'm personally going to miss the dedicated volume and brightness keys, and I use the ESC key in conjunction with Command to trigger LaunchBar, which I use heavily. I also think I'll be able to get used to it. There was a time in my life when I didn't use LaunchBar, and before I had dedicated volume and brightness keys. I don't remember it being all that bad. I'll see, when I get around to getting a new machine. I'm sure there are those who use the function row much more heavily than I. In the absence of aggregate data, I really can't comment on much more than my own experience and read about others.

Lenovo's decision to revert everything could be seen as them deciding it wasn't in their best interest to determine which changes were worth keeping. This is all speculation, of course. And they could very well have determined that all of the changes were ruinous to some degree. It's really pretty impressive that Lenovo was willing to make so many changes to their keyboard, when, AIUI, the keyboard is one of the features that keeps people coming back to Lenovo in general.

In the MacBook Pro, they're only replacing the function row with the Touch Bar. From an experimental point of view, it's a much more focussed experiment. It'll be interesting to see what happens when it's actually had more use.


In theory, you wouldn't need landmarks because the keys below are the landmarks. Unfortunately, the dynamic actions don't seem to line up with the number keys so I don't know how that will work in practice.


The size and location of the dynamic actions/custom keys isn't fixed (unlike, say physical keys each with its own display), so I'm not sure if alignment makes sense in this case. Or am I misinterpreting what you mean?

That said, I think they can have the same "fixed" location for a given use case. Just like you can remap a keyboard so Caps Lock can mean Control, once you do that, Control will be at the same location (the Caps Lock key). Once you're used to that location, things work fine.


> a pair of volume buttons

If any manufacturer would _really_ want to improve usability, they would give us back the volume knob.


Regarding kyboard shortcuts Mac OS HIG Guidelines says:

> Avoid using the Touch Bar for tasks associated with well-known keyboard shortcuts. In general, the Touch Bar shouldn’t include controls for tasks such as find, select all, deselect, copy, cut, paste, undo, redo, new, save, close, print, and quit. It also shouldn’t include controls that replicate key-based navigation, such as page up and page down.

(https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...)


Thanks for the reference to the HIG. To be clear, I was using Undo/⌘-Z as an example of how I think about keyboard shortcuts as command rather than the specific keystrokes. I wasn't suggesting that Undo should have a place on the Touch Bar.

Besides providing the reference, was there something you intended to convey with the quote?


> Besides providing the reference, was there something you intended to convey with the quote?

Only that Touchbar seems intended to be very dynamic and have constantly changing mappings. So there will not be much consistency across apps, especially since common shortcuts shouldn't be put there.

This is very different from a keyboard.


Gotcha. I agree that there will not be much consistency across apps, and I think that's the beauty of it. And yeah, what's available on the Touch Bar can potentially be very context dependent.


Actually, I could see undo on the Touch Bar being useful. I'd use cmd-Z most of the time, of course, but on more than one occasion I wished I could see what the undo command would actually do (Finder operations, among others). A 'button' on the task bar that explicitly states what will be undone could be great.


> Do you use a trackpad? Or a mouse? Do you find yourself moving your eyes back and forth between the screen and the trackpad or mouse? Honest questions. I'm not trying to be snarky :)

I think the difference is that the feedback you get on the trackpad/mouse is on the screen. It doesn't need you to look down. The same thing could not probably be said of the touchbar.


Is that so? If you're scrubbing the controller on the Touch Bar, you see the result on the screen, don't you? From the demo video, when scrubbing video, there is a keyframe on the Touch Bar, but you're also seeing the change on the screen.

Also, looking at my keyboard, the angle difference between looking at the function row to about 1 inch above the bottom of the screen (which I estimate to be the roughly the same as where a scrubber would be), is about ¼ to ⅓ of the angular distance from the bottom of the screen to the top of the screen. I think it's useful to consider how the location of the Touch Bar and its display will affect our UX. In this case, I think the concern might be overrated, given how much we're currently accustomed to moving our eyes with our existing screens.

Please note that I'm not saying you'll never look at the Touch Bar. I do think there will many cases when muscle memory will be as effective as what we're used to with a trackpad or keyboard.


> If you're scrubbing the controller on the Touch Bar, you see the result on the screen, don't you?

What if you touch the wrong part of the bar and accidentally do something else? I personally have trouble believing that I'd be able to consistently touch the right part of the bar without looking every time without there being an actual physical divide between the sections even if I did consistently remember the layout and functionality for every app I used. I think peripheral vision would help here, although that goes out the window if you're hooked up to a monitor and still using the built-in keyboard.


Except it could:

> I believe that for the use-case of Touch Bar as slider

In the case of the slider, you could absolutely see the feedback (e.g. brightness in a photo or something) on the screen.


It should be legal to murder someone for touching your laptop screen. I can't think of a bigger co-worker foul than that.

Making a screen that people are supposed to touch would be an unthinkable crime.


It works the opposite way; by having a touch laptop touchers have this hilarious public shaming moment when the UI recoils away from them pawing at my display.

What's particularly weird are involuntary touchers who are physically incapable of gesturing at something on the laptop screen without touching it. Watching them lock up as they attempt to control their arms while talking is amazing, it's like they're learning to ride a bike for the first time.


Smartphones and tablets undid years of training on my coworkers to stop touching my screen.

I just gave up and now always keep a microfiber wipe or rag next to my screen.


How can we explain these people that like to point at a laptop screen with a pen? I'm mortified every time I see it.


Keep a spray bottle handy, give 'em a little spritz every time they touch the screen.

They should learn pretty quickly.


Our Dell laptops at work all have touch screens.

Running Windows 7.

(twitch)


Hear hear. This is one of the reasons why I am not even vaguely interested in a touchscreen laptop.


Is your premise correct though? Will you need to move your head up and down? Isn't the touch bar will be in your field of vision?

Even if your premise is true, is it better to move your head up and down or to move your hands forward and backward to reach the touch screen?


> Is your premise correct though? Will you need to move your head up and down? Isn't the touch bar will be in your field of vision?

Considering zero part of my keyboard is in my field of vision I'd say yes I'd have to move my head up and down. I haven't had a chance to play with the new MacBook Pro yet but it seems like a reasonable assumption.

> Even if your premise is true, is it better to move your head up and down or to move your hands forward and backward to reach the touch screen?

It's actually two different use cases here. A touch screen helps with touch type of controls. So precision zooming and scrolling is kinda awesome on one (though scrolling is weak with the nice touchpad). The touchbar is meant to be more utility like a row of function keys.

I don't think it's entirely fair to directly compare the two. For instance moving it to the bottom of the screen instead of the top of the keyboard turns it from easy to access touch keys to more informational. At least in my opinion.


> Considering zero part of my keyboard is in my field of vision

Zero? Is that even possible?

When using a laptop, it's impossible to look at the display without being able to also look at the keyboard (and touchbar) by just moving your _eyes_. You don't have to move your head.

I think your assumption is not reasonable at all.


That's probably exactly how the argument went at apple. However, doing dev without any external screens or keyboard is the exception not the norm. If tou are already bending your neck like that day to day then sure you have bigger problems.


FWIW, I just moved towards my laptop screen until the top of the keyboard was out of my peripheral vision. My nose was almost touching the screen.


> Zero? Is that even possible?

I don't look at my keyboard when typing so other than the slight realization that it is there on a laptop I never look at it (but yes it would technically be in my field of vision in this case but that misses the point). However on a desktop setup / docked laptop the keyboard isn't anywhere near where I could see it without significantly moving my head down.

Regardless discussing field of vision is more of a red herring in this debate; it's really about the eye movement and context switching. I should have chosen different wording.

> When using a laptop, it's impossible to look at the display without being able to also look at the keyboard (and touchbar) by just moving your _eyes_. You don't have to move your head.

I think you confuse the physical act of moving ones head to be more disruptive than moving one's eyes. It's actually about the same when you're talking UX assuming the head is moving to change the field of vision. This is something you keep track of and many times head movement will be removed or ignored from testing data when you're tracking where the user is looking because you can move your head and still keep your eyes in one place.


Again you said: "Considering zero part of my keyboard is in my field of vision I'd say yes I'd have to _move_ my head up and down."

I hope you understand that you move your eyes when you look at different things on your display. The touchbar is just another display that is only slightly lower than the lowest part of your display. You don't need to move your head to see that, only your eyes. The same eyes you move when you look at different things on the main display.


> I hope you understand that you move your eyes when you look at different things on your display.

But of course. That was a huge part of my point. Moving your eyes off the display is a _big move_. It's not a typical UX pattern. These things are very well tracked in user testing with eye tracking. The idea is to incrementally move their eyes and never require large movements else you end up having UX issues.

Judging from the downvotes I'm guessing many haven't looked into or used eye tracking during user testing. It's quite interesting, you should check it out!


I think the touch pad is going to be one of those things people will just have to try, and it might turn out to be an awesome addition to the input tools at hand. Or it might one of those things that sounded good in theory, but is just a pain in practice.

One thing to consider is that things like editing video are already mouse centric, and the keyboard shortcuts augment the interface. You don't leave your hands in home position.

If you're working on the laptop, using the trackpad, you're already in the mode where you are going back and forth, and your hands need to move around.

When using a mouse, trackball, etc, you can get into workflows based on having one hand operating the mouse, while the other does the keyboard shortcuts. So there could be very interesting uses with two hands.

What makes it not so compelling to me, is that I do serious work with my laptop closed, and a big monitor (I'm music producer/audio engineer).

The amount of information you need to get on the screen at once, if possible, for media authoring applications, requires a relatively rigid focus on the screen. Having my head hunched over a little laptop display is not going to work for extended sessions.

The problem of creating physical interfaces that work well with the screen relates to the abstraction that is involved in GUIs. You have to keep steady focus on the screen, keeping track of the mouse, and what you are doing. You enter kind of a trance, pretty quickly, where you have accepted a two dimensional representation of a complex structure, and are operating within its framework.

This divorces the metaphorical actions of the user in the GUI, which is what we care about, from the physical actions of the body.

For a new user interface to work, it will have to be incorporated into this metaphorical framework the user operates in.

If it deviates to much from the abstractions of the interface, it breaks the trance required to get into the flow, and will simply not be used.

I suspect one of the issues will be if users can actually quickly look down to see what they are touching, or perceive enough with peripheral vision, without losing track of where they are on the screen. It's a reasonable location for the touch bar. As the user gets used to where controls on the touch bar are located, the visual cues might be enough to consistently target the virtual control.

It could also be really helpful for keyboard commands that have a lot of modifiers, and which you don't use much. They can be real handy at times, but the trouble of looking up the key binding in the heat of the moment prevents the habit from getting built up.


Good observation.

Look at the image[1] on the Apple website showing off the Touch Bar on the new MacBook Pro. Nobody I know uses their laptop oriented perpendicular to their desk.

One good vantage point to view the Touch Bar is standing behind the user looking over the their shoulder.

1. http://i.imgur.com/1iqXNZE.png


Look down at your functions keys. Surely you can read them just fine without being directly over them?


A touchscreen on a laptop is as much use as tits on a bull, I'm glad Apple chose to do something different.


    >and while they were at that, they could make the entire screen a touch-screen instead of just a small bar. Just imagine... a touchscreen laptop. Now that would be amazing, right?
Ummm..Gravity begs to differ. Adding touch to your laptop's screen is the worse possible thing you could do to it. It just makes zero sense ergonomically: try holding your hand up to your screen for 30s and tell me how that goes.


I kind of have trouble imagining needing to use touch controls for a full thirty seconds for them to be useful. I don't even think I keep my hand on my mouse/trackpad for anywhere close to that amount of continuous time


I was thinking the same thing, but I think that is manageable. The only thing I can't swallow is escluding the escape key as a physical button.


Rest assured that Apple has thought about this a lot more than you have, and this is the solution they came up with. Touching a screen is pretty tiring for your arms; imagine if you had no trackpad but instead had to tap everything on the screen of your laptop.

I assure you that very few people touch type the function keys; they will not be missed. The escape key I will miss, but how much I don't know.


> Touching a screen is pretty tiring for your arms

Only if you're touching it constantly, without interruption, which is a very unusual use-case. Most instances are a quick tap on a dialogue button and then back to the resting / typing position.

Anyhow, extending my arm to touch the screen feels little different to reaching for my Dell 'media keys' ( in the same location as Apple's Touch Bar ); just a slightly different vector. In either case I have to break my home-row poise, but when touching the screen at least I don't have to break my eyes-on-screen-focus whilst my finger comes into view.

I like the idea up-thread of an alternative position for the Touch Bar below the screen, usually reserved for a logo which loiters uselessly but subliminally in my peripheral vision.


I already type on my iPhone without looking at the keys. You don't need tactile feedback to touch type. If you use the though bar in a particular app enough, I imagine muscle memory will help you out.


Ha, well said!

I have grown to love the touch screen on my Chromebook pixel. Felt awkward to reach at first, but a non touch screen now feels really awkward. Not that the touch screen replaces all interaction, there are some things that are faster on the keyboard, touch pad, or touch screen.

That said, touching other people's screens is not polite.

With regards to the touch bar, seems like you could use software in combination with the existing touchpad and screen to do something similar. Reserve the top edge of the touch pad, on touch a menu pops up, slide to select or something...


Same experience with my Pixel. Also, in some situations such as when training someone, being able to have them use the keyboard/track pad and then being able to move things forward by touching/zooming the screen when they get stuck is productive and doesn't interrupt flow.


> a touchscreen laptop. Now that would be amazing, right?

No, not without a made-for-touch-from-the-ground-up OS, which neither macOS nor Windows is.


I can confirm. I have a touchscreen laptop and use it only once a week when discussing things with coworkers, because that way they can see more clearly what I do in contrast to using the mouse.


Apple's HIG[1] on the Touch bar is actually great. You can sort of understand the reason Apple put it on the Macbook. You can at least envision two interesting things:

- Touch UI for scrubbing/scrolling contents faster.

- Dynamic shortcuts for most used commands that previously only accessible by using the keyboard.

[1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Us...


You mean like the ginormous trackpad directly beneath the keyboard? Wouldn't it be cool if they built scrubbing/scrolling right into that?

Also, dynamic shortcuts! Like the kind you get with BetterTouchTool[1]?

[1]https://www.boastr.net/


I thought this whilst watching Apple's event. All of the functionality they demonstrated on the TouchBar basically duplicated functionality already in each app via a shortcut. Eg. safari - you can open a new tab! (cmd-T). There's an address bar! (cmd-L). You can go to each tab! (cmd-number, eg. cmd-1).

And all of the gestures were what the excellent touchpad was built to do anyway. Scrubbing? Gestures will do that.

It's like they put two giant touch interfaces on the device so that they could fight for attention, and the poor developer has to write two handlers for the two event sources, whilst it does the same thing at the end of it.


I haven't actually tried it yet, but by watching the launch demo and several screenshots of touch bar on app like Photos or Final Cut Pro I can see that:

- Touch Bar is probably better on scrubbing/scrolling because you can actually see the zoomed out content, like the entire timeline of the movie on FCP.

- I haven't tried Boastr. I am sure it's useful and faster for pro. But on first look it's pretty complicated. It's not built in to the Mac and not easily accessible, especially for new user.


So scrubbing on a tiny screen where your finger occludes the items you need to see? Otherwise, the trackpad or screen itself would make more sense....


I think there's something to what you're saying here. That's often been an argument for the mouse/pointer vs touch screen as well. How is this different from using a touch screen in general? Or are you saying that's problematic as well? Having an additional Touch Bar to effectively increase screen real estate by removing the necessity of dedicating screen space to the slider control seems like a win.

I don't do video editing or anything like that. My experience with a slider is pretty much limited to Netflix and such on my tablet :) Seems to work pretty well there. I can see how it might not work as well for fine-grained work. But that's an argument for touch screens in general, isn't it? Or do you think there's a distinction between Touch Bar and touch screen?

Caveat: On some video sliders, you can move vertically as well to increase/dilate the resolution of the horizontal movement. You won't have the same room with the touch screen. A couple options I can think of: use the track pad or a key press to modify the Touch Bar tracking; or perhaps track the speed of movement on the Touch Bar to modify the resolution, e.g., slower movement, higher resolution.


No, sir. In fact you can still see both the current content on the Macbook screen and the entire timeline on the Touch Bar. On trackpad, you need to actually move the pointer to the content before you can scrub, and it's not really that fast. If you manipulate directly on the screen, isn't it will block the view?

IMHO, as far as I understand it, Touch Bar is a bridge that connects the static nature of the keyboard with the dynamic nature of the screen. It is not intended to replace keyboard nor the screen. It is there to augment and extend them.

Touch bar is perfect for this job, considering:

- You can't beat the fast input from fixed keyboard + muscle memory.

- Touch screen on a laptop is really not ergonomic, your arm will get tired fast.


You have a lot of strong opinions about something you have never used.


I always enjoy installing and configuring complicated 3rd party software! This BetterTouchTool is way better than any out of the box "it just works" software...


No. Ye gods no.

O' how I despise the new trackpads that aren't merely trackpad pointing devices, but also buttons, scrollbars and other bullshit I never wanted too.

Christ. I need to move the fucking mouse cursor. And, shit on me, I did not intend on fucking clicking or swiping anything, or an other absurdly tangential but obliquely imaginable bullshit, God damn it.

The worst is when you have to press the trackpad to click the button, and as your fleshy fingers flatten out against the trackpad, it registers the pressure center moving slightly, and so the pointer moves, and you click the wrong God damned thing because the trackpad IS the button.

It was better when the buttons were separate plastic divisions disconnected from the motion tracking area.

JUST MOVE THE CURSOR PLEASE.


Have you tried Apple's recent trackpads with the Force Touch sensor and haptic feedback?

In my experience, the fact that the trackpad no longer physically moves when you press down on it to click makes really cuts down on the problem of the cursor moving during the click, as does the greatly improved uniformity of the force required. Being able to adjust the force required to click is also quite nice.

I was never quite satisfied with Apple's hinged trackpads (or the standalone bluetooth trackpad with the click mechanism in the rubber feet) as a replacement for the physical button despite the trackpad size increase it enabled, but the latest generation strikes me as almost perfect.


The public out cry is because Apple removed the ESC key for no reason (and positioned it one row above on the touch bar). And many are angry that MacBookPro now costs even more, and has 2013-style hardware in 2016. If it was called MacBookAir and cost half there would be no out cry. A Pro-level notebook that is now way too thin for high-end hardware and too thin for common connectors and too slow for high end application needs like 4k video cutting & processing, etc. - well it's not a Pro-notebook anymore, more something for wannabes, life-style and hipsters article. As the other hardware desktop/mini/Pro/notebook stuff from Apple is stuck in 2013-models as well, it's scary to watch how they don't get it at all. So the touch bar isn't a problem, it's just one of many questionable decisions (the same happens at Microsoft, so many questionable decisions and deaf ear to the community) - Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are really missing.


As silly as the touch bar looks this type of project gives me hope for its usefulness.


You seem to have a strange definition for "usefulness".


The charitable interpretation of their comment is not that Nyan Cat is useful, but that this is a creative use for a new medium/input device, and that we will likely see more uses developed for it that we had not previously envisioned.


That is what I was thinking about.


I can only imagine the opportunities that arise for Cialis and Viagra "marketers".


I'd consider the touchbar more useful for UI interaction if it were instead in either:

- The trackpad

- The bottom 1" of the laptop screen


Or the spacebar!


Hmm.. I might use that. For typing, I wouldn't miss the physical space bar key like I'll miss the physical escape key. It would be closer to where my hand is naturally on the trackpad too.


it could still work as a key :>


But will it work like a key?


It should be possible with enough care. A touch sensitive space bar would really enhance a keyboard (I'm mostly using a desktop though, doesn't make sense on a laptop)


That actually sounds like a pretty brilliant idea to me.

If the space bar area was converted to the track pad. Tapping it would be a space, while dragging it would give you the touch bar like features. So for example, when using Word, you have formatting options on the space touch bar like they demonstrated on the touch bar. If you tap it, it's a space, but start sliding from the left, and the formatting options appear on the screen itself, and you stop sliding when you reach the option you want to select it. Basically, tap to touch, and slide to scrub between options (or between a timeline).

This way you also wouldn't have to take your eyes off the screen to know what options are available.


Love this. Please go work at Apple


This gives me an idea. The keyboard on my phone recently added the feature to drag along the spacebar to move the cursor in the text, but it's far too small to be that useful. I think being able to swipe on the spacebar to move the cursor or horizontally scroll would be fairly useful (especially given how often I actually scroll slightly horizontally on trackpads when I try to scroll vertically)


They could also have built the fingerprint reader into a key, judging by how Sony puts them inside power buttons. That would have been classy!


My bet is after this okay-to-failure of a product iteration Apple will pivot to a detachable dual screen model... Fear not though, they'll still happily lag behind current hardware for better margins. /s ;)


>Fear not though, they'll still happily lag behind current hardware for better margins.

They don't "lag behind current hardware for better margins". The CPU class they use in the MBPr line is still unavailable from Intel. Early "Kaby Lake" PC laptops use other, more power hungry, Kaby Lake models, and even those in limited runs.

If they wanted to achieve better margins in any way, they could use way worse construction and materials, not insist on high quality trackpads, not add the touch strip, add cheapo USB 2.1 and even Ethernet ports to keep everybody happy, and just put some early, 6-hour battery life Kaby Lake machine out there.


Are you referring to the i7-6700HQ that was released in 2015? The CPU that's present in the 15" Retina MacBook Pro? Or is there a different CPU that nobody else is privy to?


There isn't a mobile class edition of the Kalby Lake processor with four cores available. The 15" Pro has been quad core as long as I can remember. It was also only announced a few months ago.

Skylake processors were announced last year and the new laptop uses them. In fact, I believe the 15" BTO edition uses the fastest Skylake processor Intel makes.


>Are you referring to the i7-6700HQ that was released in 2015? The CPU that's present in the 15" Retina MacBook Pro?

No, I'm referring to the equivalent to the i7-6700HQ Kaby Lake CPU, that Intel still hasn't delivered...


How would using USB 2.1 be cheaper than the standard Intel and Apple co-developed?


By having been a commodity hardware item for ages, produced in bulk for next to nothing at all.

It's not about licensing fees.


I don't think Apple will ever do a detachable. They're problematic and have very limited use cases.


I'm unfamiliar with what detachable implies here. What's the distinction between a detachable and something like an iPad with a Smart Keyboard? Is a Surface Book or a Surface Pro a detachable?


I think he's talking about what I would call a "convertible," e.g. Lenovo's portable Yoga range. Something that can be both a proper laptop (by the popular definition) and a tablet.


Cheers. The lines are starting to blur, aren't they?


The Surface Book which can work independently of the base. It's also been plagued with numerous problems since its release.


My big issue with the touch bar is it will be a far awkward reach for me when I use my desk with external monitor with a external keyboard. It's really only useful when I work outside my office. :(


This. I think from now on, If I get a Macbook Pro, I will just buy 2 monitors, and get them upper so the monitors with the laptop screen would make like a "V". With a mouse and no more... Because a keyboard with touchbar I think will be pretty expensive... But It will be at least a year until I change my actual macbook so a lot of can happen in one year, like Microsoft updating the Surface book...


Same for me, but - anecdotally - I've noticed a ton of people working with their laptops and external monitors in a stacked arrangement lately. They don't use a secondary mouse or keyboard, and instead keep their laptop in front of them with the external monitor above and behind it.


Ahh interesting. I will give this stacked approach a shot then! Thanks


Hopefully the function keys on your external keyboard will still act like they used to!


I want to see a music app on it so somebody do a sweet theremin solo on that thing keytar style.


Do you have a mouse or a touchscreen? You can already do this pretty succesfully: http://staticresource.com/theremin.html

(Note: android, and computer users can use this righht away, but iOS users will need to add this page to their homescreen before Apple is fully convinced that the users DOES want to hear sounds generated via the web audio API. Seems silly, but Apple doesnt trust that users know what they want)


But I don't want to hear sounds generated by the web audio API. So this behaviour seems entirely correct to me.


Well if you are writing your own HTML and JS instruments, chances are you do want to hear sounds generated by the web audio API.

Are the users of Safari and Mobile Safari so different that on the desktop its totally fine (as in any browser) but Mobile Safari users need it blocked unless they take action to hear it? I cant think of any reason to single out the users of Mobile Safari with such a feature.


I was worried that the touchbar will not have any legitimate use. On a bit more serious note, is there anything that this could do that is worth the pain of removing the esc and fn keys from the user point of view? I can hardly think of anything.


They should sell boxes of adhesive bluetooth touchbars by the dozen, so you can stick them all over the place.


I thought about putting super mario on that bar.


Or the world's shortest level of Pacman


I can't wait for Bonzi Buddy to make it here. /s


how about Lemmings? "oh no!" ;)


Just imagine Sonic the Hedgehog on this sucker!


Oh god please do this


I want to see 1D snake. No inputs required and the player wins every time.

edit: the player actually loses in all cases but one, with a random score


That's pretty much all it's good for.


That about sums it up.


The touch bar will be what finally compels Bloomberg to build a Mac-native Terminal. Mark my words.


There really isnt any need for a mac or linux terminal, Bloomberg anywhere works great and so does running Bloomberg inside a VM... Also they would just release a new keyboard with a touch bar given 99% of the install base is Windows.


Imagine Microsoft Clippy providing great advice to the users of the touchbar.


Dammit, literally what I was going to do, but my macbook ships in another 3 weeks.


Xcode has a Touch Bar simulator you could have used


Xcode is on my work only laptop sadly - this'll be my first personal MacBook!


You can do it still. No need to be "first", IMO.


could someone who has the TouchBar tell me: is it possible to lock the function keys in place? Does the user or the app have ultimate control of its little screen?

edit: I say this as someone who loves nyancat, and would love to have a nyan-mode on/off toggle somewhere, if I had a TouchBar.


They did talk about customization with a drag and drop interface. Hopefully they allow us to drop what we want there!


For those of us that will not buy a Macbook anytime soon(the one I have is working just fine), show us the youtube!


Thanks, I'll wait for Canonlake and LPDDR 4.



Hasn't this meme kinda... played out at this point?


Maybe? But if you want to shove a meme onto the touchbar this is pretty much the perfect one to pick because of how it works.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: